I read a news story once of a woman who was getting ready to jump off a 44 story building in New York City.
Witnesses said that she did not look like the type of person who would do such a thing. She was very distinguished and well dressed.
All the attempts made by the police to get the woman off the ledge had failed.
One of the officers asked if he could call his pastor in to see if he could help. When the pastor arrived, he asked permission to go to the ledge and talk to the woman.
As the pastor neared the edge the woman screamed, "Don't come any closer or I'll jump!"
The pastor took a step back and then said, "I am sorry that you believe no one loves you."
This got the woman's attention and it got the attention of the police. That was something that you don't usually say to a person who is threatening suicide.
The woman took a step towards the pastor and said, "My grandchildren love me and so does my children. My whole family loves me! I have 8 wonderful grandchildren and they love me."
The pastor took a step towards the woman and said, "Well then, you must be very poor, maybe that is why you want to take your own life."
The woman who was a little overweight said, "Do I look like I go without any meals? We live in a very nice apartment. I'm not poor."
The pastor took another step closer to her and was now 3 feet from her when he asked, "Then why do you want to kill yourself? I don't understand."
The woman thought for a moment and then said, "You know, I don't really remember."
The story ends with the pastor and the woman walking towards the elevator as she shows him pictures of her grandchildren. Eventually this woman becomes a volunteer on the city's suicide hotline, helping others choose life.
.http://www.sermoncentral.com/illustrations/sermon-illustration-sermon-central-staff-stories-family-78775.asp

The story may or may not fit... But its an example of someone who was focused on their own troubles and not looking at the bigger picture of people who cared about her.... and the impact she could make on others.

dolphin_lives wrote:

And it will be something hard to understand in the long run, you now just called me a bad mother for having these thoughts. Not saying it out right, but who are you to judge? You do not live the life I do. And I understand you completely but ruining their life, doubtful, they(in this hypothetical situation) would not go to foster care, both have family they go to, and I was raised in foster care, my child and I (this is before my second was born) did suffer homelessness, I was in jail before I hit foster care, and stats are not always correct, they are measured by a small percentage of people. So stats are innacurrate. But unless you know the situations, unless you know the story, how is it you can say these things? "maybe child raising is not made for you" ummm that is a cop out if I ever heard of one. I love my kids...and there are scenerios that make people feel there is no way out. And I can see that you over look the fact that in this hypothetical situation(and i stress that because this is not real, this is a faked situation) this MOTHER, feels that her kids are better off with her dead because she feels dead anyway, not wanting to get out of bed, not wanting to care for anything, depressed to the point of not eating, always sleeping, letting her duties go as a mother, she tried every medication on the market, she has talked to 100's of different shrinks, she asked her friends, her boyfriend, her family for help and every one says the same thing "snap out of it for your kids" how can she be strong if no one there to help?

First, I didn't call you a bad mother. I gave my own personal opinion on the matter, but it wasn't a direct attack at you. As I've clearly stated in every post, it's purely circumstantial.

Secondly, these aren't sample statistics. They're accumulated data. You can find this information on .org websites, the same way you can find the
breakdown of gender, race, etc. And the statistics can be just as grave for kids growing up with other family, like grandparents. You can find information on the mental trauma for that as well.

Thirdly, you keep giving circular examples. You say "no one was there to help" yet you described a scenario where she's talked to everyone she can think of. If I was ever approached by a friend or family member who had suicidal thoughts, I would do anything in my power to make sure they got the correct attention. I know everyone isn't this way, but 99% of people are. It comes to a point where if you've sought out that much help from people, and you've tried the medication, and you've seen "hundreds of doctors," and you're still asking the question why they didn't do more for you, then you might consider that you should stop pushing the blame on them for not pulling you far enough out of the ditch. I'm not saying blame yourself, but if anyone in any way had made an honest effort to help you, I don't know how they could do more. And in the process, the hypothetical mother will leave them feeling cold and guilty for her action, and leaver her kids with nothing but trauma.

itsDK wrote:

dolphin_lives wrote: And it will be something hard to understand in the long run, you now just called me a bad mother for having these thoughts. Not saying it out right, but who are you to judge? You do not live the life I do. And I understand you completely but ruining their life, doubtful, they(in this hypothetical situation) would not go to foster care, both have family they go to, and I was raised in foster care, my child and I (this is before my second was born) did suffer homelessness, I was in jail before I hit foster care, and stats are not always correct, they are measured by a small percentage of people. So stats are innacurrate. But unless you know the situations, unless you know the story, how is it you can say these things? "maybe child raising is not made for you" ummm that is a cop out if I ever heard of one. I love my kids...and there are scenerios that make people feel there is no way out. And I can see that you over look the fact that in this hypothetical situation(and i stress that because this is not real, this is a faked situation) this MOTHER, feels that her kids are better off with her dead because she feels dead anyway, not wanting to get out of bed, not wanting to care for anything, depressed to the point of not eating, always sleeping, letting her duties go as a mother, she tried every medication on the market, she has talked to 100's of different shrinks, she asked her friends, her boyfriend, her family for help and every one says the same thing "snap out of it for your kids" how can she be strong if no one there to help? First, I didn't call you a bad mother. I gave my own personal opinion on the matter, but it wasn't a direct attack at you. As I've clearly stated in every post, it's purely circumstantial. Secondly, these aren't sample statistics. They're accumulated data. You can find this information on .org websites, the same way you can find the breakdown of gender, race, etc. And the statistics can be just as grave for kids growing up with other family, like grandparents. You can find information on the mental trauma for that as well. Thirdly, you keep giving circular examples. You say "no one was there to help" yet you described a scenario where she's talked to everyone she can think of. If I was ever approached by a friend or family member who had suicidal thoughts, I would do anything in my power to make sure they got the correct attention. I know everyone isn't this way, but 99% of people are. It comes to a point where if you've sought out that much help from people, and you've tried the medication, and you've seen "hundreds of doctors," and you're still asking the question why they didn't do more for you, then you might consider that you should stop pushing the blame on them for not pulling you far enough out of the ditch. I'm not saying blame yourself, but if anyone in any way had made an honest effort to help you, I don't know how they could do more. And in the process, the hypothetical mother will leave them feeling cold and guilty for her action, and leaver her kids with nothing but trauma.

and thus is the dilema not blaming others for not helping her, what i am saying is and i dont think you are understanding me, and thus i would like another opinion rather than just the two of us going back and forth. wont go no where but up and down hill sort to speak.

1. a person may think suicide is the only option if the person has seeked the help every one tells them they should seek
2.it will continue to stay a ciruclar conversation because you think I am saying she is blaming others for not helping her, well hahaha(sarcasticly done) not blaming, just saying every avenue has been crossed, every thing she has tried to change in herself is not who she is, everything is exhausted, her attempts at life are dwindling and becoming nothing more than a cinder, shes a hollow shell, SHE HAS TRIED TO HELP HER SELF FOR THE SAKE OF HER KIDS. But she can't take the anguish and pain. She blames herself for everything she has tried to make herself better, and in the end all the help others tried, all the help she has tried just brought her back here, to square one, emptiness(yes she is loved by her kids, yes she is loved by her family, friends, co workers etc) no she is not poor, no her kids are not lacking in anything, she just can not take how she feels, she can't take the stress of having her mental issues(lets say bi polar rage and depression, and she is sick of always feeling twisted inside, hopeless and useless). Thus she wants to end it all. Doesn't but wants to.


and lets get off the woman being a woman with kids, lets make it a man with no kids, no family, no friends, locked up in a mental ward for being schizophrenic, and the only way he can lead a normal life is with medication, but he refuses because the drugs cause him to drool, and piss himself(they take away the bodily function control in the brain) so he can't get a job, but atleast the voices go away, would it still be selfish if he commited suicide because he in his mind has no other option.

I wanna get off the subject of the mother, because obviously everyone will call her selfish, but not knowing the circumstances to the suicide they are allowed to judge. And that is selfish all in its own.

dolphin_lives wrote:

and lets get off the woman being a woman with kids, lets make it a man with no kids, no family, no friends, locked up in a mental ward for being schizophrenic, and the only way he can lead a normal life is with medication, but he refuses because the drugs cause him to drool, and piss himself(they take away the bodily function control in the brain) so he can't get a job, but atleast the voices go away, would it still be selfish if he commited suicide because he in his mind has no other option.

I'm not going to lie, you've got to tweak the scenario to get a case like this, whereas a single mother with kids is just as common as anything else. But in this case, if the guy is schizophrenic, he might feel depressed but that's a result of his condition and if it's that severe to the point where he's in a mental ward, then there's not a lot anyone can do but treat him day by day. A mental illness like schizophrenia is different than someone who's depressed and has suicidal tendencies. There are a lot of reasons why someone could be depressed, and a lot of them can be appropriately treated if they're not related to mental illness but some kind of trauma or something else. But there's not really a surefire way to deal with mental problems.

Perhaps if we can be said to own anything it's the "me"! (the whole shebang, body, mind 'n' soul, not that sure about the last two!). What we want to do with the "me", our business, that includes suicide? Suicide is a decision of the self, it relates to the self, by definition it's not anything but selfish (except when it might be believed it is helping others, like Oats in the Antarctic!)? Is that a problem?

Is it more about two other things?

Firstly, perhaps a better question to ask might be, is it an immoral act? Many acts that we do that puts the "me" first are, arguably, immoral, they sometimes hurt others. But that's not always avoidable. Even, you can suggest, when we seek pleasure (or relief), we do so sometimes at the expense of others.

Secondly, suicide is often seen as an irrational act. Or, perhaps, more vaguely, an unnatural act. It's something we see rarely in other life forms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_suicide However, I'd suggest, that one of our finer traits as a life form is to be able to, through our big brains and language, attempt to understand our nature/condition and not always be inclined to obey it. Rebellion! It's our USP in the animal world! We, I'd suggest, get to the irrational part thanks to religions and their certainty in the sanctity of life (well human life) , when it's not that simple an issue frankly. We avoid suffering, that is often seen as rational behaviour? We do not leave our hand on a hot plate. Those in chronic pain, whose quality of life is, to them, unbearable, to whom death would be a release....who are we, who are not in that position, to judge?


EDIT. Take Terry Pratchet. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13767216 There's a man who seems to love his mind, he's a natural born "punner" anyone who thinks like him I tend to believe enjoys life. He suffers from Alzheimers, he's clearly and coherently expressed the wish (on many occasions) that he would like to die before he can no longer come to that decision as his illness progresses. Irrational? Don't see it personally. Immoral? He seems not to want to put his family and friends through his suffering? Doesn't seem so.

Now if we, as individuals, can view that suicide is not always malign, that in some cases it is acceptable to us as a society at large then we're into the rather messy business of "drawing the line".

I think it isn't really helpful to judge a person who commits suicide as being morally deficient. In the past, when mental illness was poorly understood, people who took their own lives were often regarded as being fully competent and making a calculated, deliberate choice to end life to avoid its burdens and trials. While there are probably some who do this, many people who commit suicide suffer from severe (and often untreated) mental conditions like chronic depression, schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, PTSD, and so on. While suicide should not be glorified, I think the moral culpability of a person who does it has to be judged with care and compassion rather than condemnation.

Greg3001 wrote:

I think it isn't really helpful to judge a person who commits suicide as being morally deficient. In the past, when mental illness was poorly understood, people who took their own lives were often regarded as being fully competent and making a calculated, deliberate choice to end life to avoid its burdens and trials. While there are probably some who do this, many people who commit suicide suffer from severe (and often untreated) mental conditions like chronic depression, schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, PTSD, and so on. While suicide should not be glorified, I think the moral culpability of a person who does it has to be judged with care and compassion rather than condemnation.

And I quite agree with you.

Who are we to judge, unless we know the whole story. Regardless if the person is a mother, a father, a brother, a sister, a daughter, grand-daughter, etc.
Like all of my scenerios, I see that woman having no way out, every possible avenue saught, and she came to the choice that her kids were better off without her in her condition, left them with their father, and told them she loved them its not their fault.(and yes they will be sad, they will think its their fault depending on age and how much reasoning they have aquired)and she kills herself(happened alot in the 50's) in fact my step father's mother killed herself because his father would sexually assualt her, would beat her, would drink, rape beat again, go to church say he's sorry, and do it again. my step dad found his mother in a corn feild in the early 60's with her wrists slashed. Traumatized, for a while yes, he can talk about it, took 45 years to do so. But all of these things were not talked about in his childhood, so thats why he is traumatized. Could her suicide been prevented, no I don't think so, not for the time period it was. If she did it today, I still don't think so, you can take the victim away from the abuse, but the damage is still done.)

I can list every scenerio that has caused me to want to commit suicide, and who has talked me out of it, and what they said to keep me here, BUT all in all what is that really doing? making me feel bad, making me think i am a horrible person, making matters worse in the long run. Telling me I am ruining my kids' lives if I take my own...that's a horrible thing to say, and judgemental at the smallest. Whos to say my suffering isn't ruining their lives. My outbursts of rage that have hurt my fiancee(never touched my kids in a fit of rage, as they are fragile and i could never hurt them, but my fiancee can and has fought back, he stays because he knows that we tried every medication out there for bi polar and other psychotics, and he knows that its hard to control. so what if I decide that its in my kids best interest if they stop seeing me out of control, and i decide that they will learn better from a person/people who don't rage every 2-3 weeks(yes my rage goes with my cycle) who is anyone to tell me that is selfish? you don't know the whole story, never will. you don't know what they see, what they hear. Why can you judge me for trying to soften their life up because what we have now is not so perfect? (but like i said before, i think about it daily, and the only selfish thing I can think of, is if I die, I will miss them. When I almost died in a car crash a year ago, first thing that I thought of is"i am never going to see my kids again" that is selfish of me. I am trying day by day to make life better and happier, easier written on this thing than done.

ANd I do agree, treat the person's suicide with compassion, and don't condem them for it. It's only because of religion is suicide really taboo.

Suicide is a tragedy, frankly I don't think that a person who commits suicide truly hoping for death rather than as a plea for help even HAS the capability to be selfish. Our instinct of self preservation is the very root of selfish behavior. So if all that remains is the wish to die, selfishness isn't really what I would call it.

Greg3001 wrote:

I think it isn't really helpful to judge a person who commits suicide as being morally deficient.

I would agree, it behooves the question where do we get the quite commonly held view that suicide as an act is "wrong"? Often that word with a very overt moral tones rather than as in a mistake? It is often conflated with murder at times. The Bible as a source is not helpful to a modern day discussion on the topic I would suggest, and yet it's often cited.

Sophist wrote:

Greg3001 wrote: I think it isn't really helpful to judge a person who commits suicide as being morally deficient. I would agree, it behooves the question where do we get the quite commonly held view that suicide as an act is "wrong"? Often that word with a very overt moral tones rather than as in a mistake? It is often conflated with murder at times. The Bible as a source is not helpful to a modern day discussion on the topic I would suggest, and yet it's often cited.

Suicide does occur I think at least once in the Bible, where one of the OT Kings commits suicide to avoid a humiliating death. The religious argument often goes like this; life is God's creation and therefore to take innocent life (including your own life) is to usurp the divine prerogative. I remember a Jewish scholar said that human life is given to us like something on loan or trust; we don't have the right to dispose of life absolutely. We are stewards of our lives, and have a duty towards self-preservation (but not at all costs, since life can be sacrified justly in certain situations). The Christian churches tended to regard suicide as self-murder and also a mortal sin that cut you off from God, so the traditional practice until quite recently was to deny a suicide a Christian funeral, as well as burial on consecrated ground.

However, even the religious view towards suicide has changed since the mental health issues around it have become more clearly understood. The Catholic Church for example in its Catechism said this about suicide:

"Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives."

This is a lot less harsh than the treatments on the subject you would find in earlier works on moral theology or religion.

Western philosophers outside of the religious tradition have argued suicide can be acceptable in some situations. Stoic philosophers argued it was acceptable if it was no longer possible to live a decent life and strive for virtue, but suicide would only be a last resort. David Hume was also sympathetic towards suicides because of his awareness of the evil and suffering often inherent in life. I think most contemporary philosophers would accept an absolute condemnation of suicide is not workable.